the bobby reference 😂💕 so succinct… i feel like ive been moving through a time warp trying to understand why love wasn’t happening for me, why so much of everything immediately felt off and fell apart… why so many of the relationships i see feel so terrible, weird, and achey. why i feel that the men who desire me exhibit resentment as opposed to devotion. we are spiritually at war, fr. i had to move through some rly painful desperation while being alone, but being on the other side of that grief, i’m glad i haven’t settled. is my pain so much worse than that of the single mother of three kids + one emotionally incompetent husband? not really. the children they created are so precious to me regardless, but i will choose the grief of freedom and weirdness over the grief of conformity
It’s also grief of real human connection though , because I think on a bell hooks type beat we are meant to be spiritually , romantically and emotionally connected with men ; like she describes those who are willing to unlearn patriarchy like majority well SOME of this women do … those women who be enabling their behavior so men still feel compelled to do their same pattern I throw shade to you too cuz we gotta be the change we wanna see in the world but ANYWAY …. Even friendships and intimacy in most senses across humans has became more detached, the globalization of social media has had some lovely things but destroys the necessity for localized connections. I don’t think we are meant to be as self absorbed as we have became and I do think social media reinforces or maybe illustrates this solitude everyone embarks on nowadays, it’s like Skyrim irl forever 😳 yet I’m grateful to be able to connect and say I reasonate with those aches, I’ve woken up today after this weird argument I had with this dude and my abdomen isn’t happy at ALL with me …. I’m gonna go and revisit things like Women Who Run With Wolves. I love Madeline Argy podcasts and such because she explores a lot of the same ideas as this writer does 🩷
Can't stress this enough!!!!! This article is great and exactly what men and women need to hear. Men don't know what its like to be responsible for their own emotions and we have some women who will continue to tolerate a man with zero emotional intelligence.
really enjoyed the article. another from you i would love to read about is an exploration of what you wrote: “ Meaning we uphold, reinforce, and defend systems that are taught, basically the gatekeepers of culture.” that’s such an interesting observation
This was an interesting read, and one which I read as an antidote to a recent article I read along the same lines but modern women being unlovable. Although all I could take from this message was (I mean no insult) women don't like properly vetting or choosing the right man. Good men are out there a-plenty. But unfortunately we're in those 'easy times make weak men' days so there's a lot of chaff hiding the good. Rape aside which is an abhorrent crime and worthy of medieval levels of punishment, a consenting arrangement resulting in regret or disappointment where the man 'doesn't show up emotionally' is just a poor choice. It is a sad fact of life that bad men and women will always exist. It is only up to us as individuals to make the correct choice in our partners, and make sure we vet them properly. I've been stung before, everyone goes through heartbreak. All you can do is improve yourself, and improve your ability to judge character and honesty.
BTW I'm not against one night stands, I'm not against short term romance, just know what you're getting yourself into!
The natural selection your thinking of is not what's actually going to happen. Women who think like this never have kids and the men that pander to them don't either. What we're seeing with the rise of islam around the world is that women who are more prone to submission and men who are more prone to organized cult like violence are reproducing at far greater rates then any other group. I hope this is what you wanted sweat heart
PEOPLE ARE DOING THINGS THEY WOULDNT DO because you are right in a way people don’t want to be lonely and people do want kids like God damn I WANT KIDS !! I think your petty nature destroys the fact you could have made a decent point, we are at a point that people are willing to become so tolerable they will stay in such horrible situations where they are getting beat ?!?!?!? And the rise of Islam and it’s a beautiful religion , I think also stems from the fact people want the security of knowing they will get married and will have kids. Maybe try to see things with more empathy rather than spiteful because that’s what separates us ; I think what saint did was saw both perspectives while honoring the main point of how it effects women
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women... the righteous women are devoutly obedient... As for those from whom you fear arrogance, advise them, forsake them in bed, and strike them. But if they obey you, seek no means against them.”(Qur’an – Surah 4:34, excerpted)
My hubris is my undoing? My entire fucking life I have had to fight to feel good enough and now that I finally feel good enough you’re tell me to have less confidence? Story checks out.
Let me separate the fact from opinion and see if you still want to argue with me.
Fact: muslims have significantly higher birth rates while non-muslims in countries that respect women have negative birth rates. Therefore there is natural selection going on in favor of muslims.
interpretation: the author suggests that natural selection happening is in favor of women and women's freedom.
opinion: the freedom that wester (I would say christian but this is another topic) society provides women is objectively a good thing while the cult like, controlling behavior of muslims (+ honor killings which I know ur crowd loves to talk about) is objectively a bad thing.
Conclusion: natural selection is happening, just not the kind the author insinuated and not the kind that makes you or me for that matter feel good about the way things are.
I sit with this and wonder if the circular framing here is part of the trap itself. We name the patterns, then retreat to symmetry, as if mutual exhaustion equates to mutual responsibility. But if the problem is that we’re all stuck in roles, yeah, then what would it take to stop performing them?
Maybe the real question is: who are we without the scaffolding of the roles we resent, and do we even want to find out?
I'd be very curious to see what people think of that.
It’s a little about roles and a little about basic humanity and maturity. Everyone has access to the internet. Everyone has access to self help books and information on the other sex.
Empathy and being emotionally in-tune is a prerequisite for most women to date a man. These qualities = good fathering and helping mom with the emotional burden that comes with life.
If more men would put the bottle down, stop looking for the next younger version of their wife and became present with their kids, we would have alot of happy women. But as all women are fed up with the emotionally stunted man child, there is no point in dating or marrying/ reproducing with such a man, it becomes more work, where there should be less.
Women need to start parenting/ raising their sons and not just “love them” and we need to start loving our daughters and not only “parent/ raise them”.
You make really valid points about the tools being available and the parenting patterns. I'm genuinely curious about something though - you clearly understand what effective change looks like and what people actually need.
Given that expertise, I'm wondering: when you see posts that start with statements like 'most men are unlovable,' do you find that approach tends to motivate the growth you're describing?
I know some people argue that harsh messaging is necessary because gentler approaches don't work, but I'm less interested in what feels satisfying to say and more interested in what actually gets results.
I ask because you seem to have a clear vision of what needs to happen - men becoming present, people doing the emotional work. I'm curious about your thoughts on what kinds of messaging actually gets people there versus what just preaches to the choir.
I guess what I keep coming back to is that while these critiques are absolutely valid, if we're genuinely committed to change rather than just venting frustration, starting with inflammatory statements might be more about generating engagement than creating the outcomes we both want to see, no? Just something I've been thinking about.
The men you are teaching are very blessed to have you. You articulate beyond “well” and have genuine compassion and curiosity while doing so. I honestly felt refreshed just reading your questions and thought processes. I pray for you, your daughter, the men you are teaching, and your place in making this world a better place, now, and for the children growing in it.
I appreciate you and thank you for your kind words. These boys and young men are really strong and kind souls and are learning to protect each other but importantly themselves buy understanding their humanity first.
I'm fairly new to it but I mentor young boys at a community garden and young men through Chicago scholars, an organization founded and run by a gentleman I have known since high school.
This is not the messaging we need. This should have tapered down after the me too movement. I have a son, I’m trying to raise him right, to respect girls (he’s 10 and so far so good). It’s a lot of work because his dad is a complete dickwad who doesn’t respect women, so I’m fighting the current while still holding hope to the idea that he won’t be crucified for not being perfect.
Men need to be open, they need to hear about women’s situations and the things we have went through and flex that empathy muscle. It’s men’s time to stand up when they hear injustices and wrong doings that happen right under their nose. The systems have alot to do with this.
The pendulum always swings back to the middle. And right now women have the needle pointed at us and our issues and all of our hardships but we can’t stay here. We just can’t because although many of us are victims we need to be willing to teach (along with men willing to learn) about where to go from here.
Women are angry, rightfully so. Currently I am dealing with an ex client as a stalker (therapist). This doesn’t mean I think men are garbage. I still date, I still have hope. I just know my non- negotiables.
The Andrew Tate red pill shit needs to die. We need to balance this hate with some tolerance to the ignorant and the men need to start learning and asking questions to women from a total platonic view. Become friends with women, without expecting anything. That’s where the repair begins.
Nicole, thank you for sharing that - it takes courage to be vulnerable about what you're dealing with, especially with a stalker situation. I can only imagine how exhausting it must be fighting that current with your son while dealing with your ex.
What you said about not wanting your 10-year-old to be 'crucified for not being perfect' really resonates with me. I have a 6-year-old daughter, and I think about the world she's growing up in constantly. I actually work with young men trying to change - I've written a framework to help them do exactly what you're advocating for.
But here's the thing that I keep wrestling with: when I see posts like the original one, I can't even share the valuable parts with the men I'm working with because the inflammatory framing would actually set back their progress. These guys are already doing the hard work thats expected of them but it takes time to fully embody when someone is metabolizing their internal struggles, and this messaging punishes them for being in process rather than encouraging their growth.
Your point about the pendulum needing to swing back to the middle really hits home. The fact that there are thousands of these 'men are shit' posts suggests they're not actually working. If harsh messaging was effective, wouldn't we need fewer of these posts over time, not more?
I want my daughter's generation to grow up in a world where good men aren't afraid to try because they might not be perfect immediately. Just like you want for your son.
Now, this messaging doesn't affect me personally - I relate deeply with women and don't feel burdened by having to modulate my approach in these conversations, in fact its necessary. But many men haven't developed the tools to read between the lines yet. And yes, fragile egos be damned 😜
When men need to be open (which I totally agree with), women would need to be welcoming but to be honest your caption isn’t. The men you want to change won’t be encouraged to change and learn if all they see are captions and headlines like yours, they rather will be thrown off and fall deeper into their resentment.
I know you're directing this question are the person above but realized after your first response that I thought you may have been the author and that I believed I was responding to them. But here we are all better for it. I wish these nested 'restacks' were better displayed.
Wait, you didn’t? It came across that way but you’re right. Like the other person under this post I always thought you were the author, then my apologies.
I can honestly relate to this experience as a man myself and it’s weird to me. I feel like queer men take the benefits of the patriarchy and want that heteronormative status while in a relationship with another man. It’s perplexing to somehow be a man but to be so in tune with the experience that women have but still also be benefiting from the privilege men have. I get to have that privilege but not fully. Do you think it’s because of some other identity that supersedes the male one? I don’t think I have an answer for why I’m always carrying the emotional weight and being the one to take responsibility for when I handle it poorly but getting no credit when I manage it well. Help me understand what the fuck this is and how to move away from men and towards women
It’s called being neurotic. It’s an inverted presentation of narcissism caused by one of your parents/caretakers invalidating you and then not comforting you so you experienced ego death from the pain. Now, you lack self-esteem. When you get self-esteem, you’ll realize the reason no one appreciates all this work you do is because no one wants to validate it. They hate that you do it. They want you to stop. Sure, from time to time, after you’ve worn them down or they become insecure, maybe they momentarily contradict the message they’ve been overwhelmingly sending you—and you choose to see that moment as a breakthrough for them instead of what it actually is, a breakdown that you participated in—but nonetheless they want you to stop.
Hang around Substack long enough and you'll find all the evidence you need. I came across a guy's post recently: “women need to take accountability.” Challenged him in the comments. He had no comeback, just told me to apologise. I mean, are you alright, mate?
Then it came out. He thinks “low value women should stay in their lane” and “of course men want to fuck attractive women, why would they settle if they can fuck someone better?”
A brave bit of self-reveal, really. And such a clean example of how these men project their own flaws onto women. They use and hurt women. Women leave or disengage. Then they whinge about a “loneliness epidemic” and “high divorce rates.”
Because apparently, we should all just enable their parasitic leeching forever.
“So when you hand it back, they call it abandonment. But what they’re really feeling is exposure.” talk your shit
the bobby reference 😂💕 so succinct… i feel like ive been moving through a time warp trying to understand why love wasn’t happening for me, why so much of everything immediately felt off and fell apart… why so many of the relationships i see feel so terrible, weird, and achey. why i feel that the men who desire me exhibit resentment as opposed to devotion. we are spiritually at war, fr. i had to move through some rly painful desperation while being alone, but being on the other side of that grief, i’m glad i haven’t settled. is my pain so much worse than that of the single mother of three kids + one emotionally incompetent husband? not really. the children they created are so precious to me regardless, but i will choose the grief of freedom and weirdness over the grief of conformity
It’s also grief of real human connection though , because I think on a bell hooks type beat we are meant to be spiritually , romantically and emotionally connected with men ; like she describes those who are willing to unlearn patriarchy like majority well SOME of this women do … those women who be enabling their behavior so men still feel compelled to do their same pattern I throw shade to you too cuz we gotta be the change we wanna see in the world but ANYWAY …. Even friendships and intimacy in most senses across humans has became more detached, the globalization of social media has had some lovely things but destroys the necessity for localized connections. I don’t think we are meant to be as self absorbed as we have became and I do think social media reinforces or maybe illustrates this solitude everyone embarks on nowadays, it’s like Skyrim irl forever 😳 yet I’m grateful to be able to connect and say I reasonate with those aches, I’ve woken up today after this weird argument I had with this dude and my abdomen isn’t happy at ALL with me …. I’m gonna go and revisit things like Women Who Run With Wolves. I love Madeline Argy podcasts and such because she explores a lot of the same ideas as this writer does 🩷
Can't stress this enough!!!!! This article is great and exactly what men and women need to hear. Men don't know what its like to be responsible for their own emotions and we have some women who will continue to tolerate a man with zero emotional intelligence.
That is why dating is not something I bother with. Most of these dudes are not worth the effort.
“-had their mother had self esteem”. facts rolled in fact and i felt the hit even reading this as a woman😂
really enjoyed the article. another from you i would love to read about is an exploration of what you wrote: “ Meaning we uphold, reinforce, and defend systems that are taught, basically the gatekeepers of culture.” that’s such an interesting observation
This was an interesting read, and one which I read as an antidote to a recent article I read along the same lines but modern women being unlovable. Although all I could take from this message was (I mean no insult) women don't like properly vetting or choosing the right man. Good men are out there a-plenty. But unfortunately we're in those 'easy times make weak men' days so there's a lot of chaff hiding the good. Rape aside which is an abhorrent crime and worthy of medieval levels of punishment, a consenting arrangement resulting in regret or disappointment where the man 'doesn't show up emotionally' is just a poor choice. It is a sad fact of life that bad men and women will always exist. It is only up to us as individuals to make the correct choice in our partners, and make sure we vet them properly. I've been stung before, everyone goes through heartbreak. All you can do is improve yourself, and improve your ability to judge character and honesty.
BTW I'm not against one night stands, I'm not against short term romance, just know what you're getting yourself into!
Peace out!
The natural selection your thinking of is not what's actually going to happen. Women who think like this never have kids and the men that pander to them don't either. What we're seeing with the rise of islam around the world is that women who are more prone to submission and men who are more prone to organized cult like violence are reproducing at far greater rates then any other group. I hope this is what you wanted sweat heart
PEOPLE ARE DOING THINGS THEY WOULDNT DO because you are right in a way people don’t want to be lonely and people do want kids like God damn I WANT KIDS !! I think your petty nature destroys the fact you could have made a decent point, we are at a point that people are willing to become so tolerable they will stay in such horrible situations where they are getting beat ?!?!?!? And the rise of Islam and it’s a beautiful religion , I think also stems from the fact people want the security of knowing they will get married and will have kids. Maybe try to see things with more empathy rather than spiteful because that’s what separates us ; I think what saint did was saw both perspectives while honoring the main point of how it effects women
“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women... the righteous women are devoutly obedient... As for those from whom you fear arrogance, advise them, forsake them in bed, and strike them. But if they obey you, seek no means against them.”(Qur’an – Surah 4:34, excerpted)
Such a beautiful religion…
You’re deranged
No, he’s literally looking at population statistics and using basic logic. Your hubris is your undoing.
My hubris is my undoing? My entire fucking life I have had to fight to feel good enough and now that I finally feel good enough you’re tell me to have less confidence? Story checks out.
Let me separate the fact from opinion and see if you still want to argue with me.
Fact: muslims have significantly higher birth rates while non-muslims in countries that respect women have negative birth rates. Therefore there is natural selection going on in favor of muslims.
interpretation: the author suggests that natural selection happening is in favor of women and women's freedom.
opinion: the freedom that wester (I would say christian but this is another topic) society provides women is objectively a good thing while the cult like, controlling behavior of muslims (+ honor killings which I know ur crowd loves to talk about) is objectively a bad thing.
Conclusion: natural selection is happening, just not the kind the author insinuated and not the kind that makes you or me for that matter feel good about the way things are.
What part of this do you disagree with me?
I sit with this and wonder if the circular framing here is part of the trap itself. We name the patterns, then retreat to symmetry, as if mutual exhaustion equates to mutual responsibility. But if the problem is that we’re all stuck in roles, yeah, then what would it take to stop performing them?
Maybe the real question is: who are we without the scaffolding of the roles we resent, and do we even want to find out?
I'd be very curious to see what people think of that.
It’s a little about roles and a little about basic humanity and maturity. Everyone has access to the internet. Everyone has access to self help books and information on the other sex.
Empathy and being emotionally in-tune is a prerequisite for most women to date a man. These qualities = good fathering and helping mom with the emotional burden that comes with life.
If more men would put the bottle down, stop looking for the next younger version of their wife and became present with their kids, we would have alot of happy women. But as all women are fed up with the emotionally stunted man child, there is no point in dating or marrying/ reproducing with such a man, it becomes more work, where there should be less.
Women need to start parenting/ raising their sons and not just “love them” and we need to start loving our daughters and not only “parent/ raise them”.
You make really valid points about the tools being available and the parenting patterns. I'm genuinely curious about something though - you clearly understand what effective change looks like and what people actually need.
Given that expertise, I'm wondering: when you see posts that start with statements like 'most men are unlovable,' do you find that approach tends to motivate the growth you're describing?
I know some people argue that harsh messaging is necessary because gentler approaches don't work, but I'm less interested in what feels satisfying to say and more interested in what actually gets results.
I ask because you seem to have a clear vision of what needs to happen - men becoming present, people doing the emotional work. I'm curious about your thoughts on what kinds of messaging actually gets people there versus what just preaches to the choir.
I guess what I keep coming back to is that while these critiques are absolutely valid, if we're genuinely committed to change rather than just venting frustration, starting with inflammatory statements might be more about generating engagement than creating the outcomes we both want to see, no? Just something I've been thinking about.
The men you are teaching are very blessed to have you. You articulate beyond “well” and have genuine compassion and curiosity while doing so. I honestly felt refreshed just reading your questions and thought processes. I pray for you, your daughter, the men you are teaching, and your place in making this world a better place, now, and for the children growing in it.
I appreciate you and thank you for your kind words. These boys and young men are really strong and kind souls and are learning to protect each other but importantly themselves buy understanding their humanity first.
I would be interested in learning more about what you do and the impact you’re making!
I'm fairly new to it but I mentor young boys at a community garden and young men through Chicago scholars, an organization founded and run by a gentleman I have known since high school.
This is not the messaging we need. This should have tapered down after the me too movement. I have a son, I’m trying to raise him right, to respect girls (he’s 10 and so far so good). It’s a lot of work because his dad is a complete dickwad who doesn’t respect women, so I’m fighting the current while still holding hope to the idea that he won’t be crucified for not being perfect.
Men need to be open, they need to hear about women’s situations and the things we have went through and flex that empathy muscle. It’s men’s time to stand up when they hear injustices and wrong doings that happen right under their nose. The systems have alot to do with this.
The pendulum always swings back to the middle. And right now women have the needle pointed at us and our issues and all of our hardships but we can’t stay here. We just can’t because although many of us are victims we need to be willing to teach (along with men willing to learn) about where to go from here.
Women are angry, rightfully so. Currently I am dealing with an ex client as a stalker (therapist). This doesn’t mean I think men are garbage. I still date, I still have hope. I just know my non- negotiables.
The Andrew Tate red pill shit needs to die. We need to balance this hate with some tolerance to the ignorant and the men need to start learning and asking questions to women from a total platonic view. Become friends with women, without expecting anything. That’s where the repair begins.
Nicole, thank you for sharing that - it takes courage to be vulnerable about what you're dealing with, especially with a stalker situation. I can only imagine how exhausting it must be fighting that current with your son while dealing with your ex.
What you said about not wanting your 10-year-old to be 'crucified for not being perfect' really resonates with me. I have a 6-year-old daughter, and I think about the world she's growing up in constantly. I actually work with young men trying to change - I've written a framework to help them do exactly what you're advocating for.
But here's the thing that I keep wrestling with: when I see posts like the original one, I can't even share the valuable parts with the men I'm working with because the inflammatory framing would actually set back their progress. These guys are already doing the hard work thats expected of them but it takes time to fully embody when someone is metabolizing their internal struggles, and this messaging punishes them for being in process rather than encouraging their growth.
Your point about the pendulum needing to swing back to the middle really hits home. The fact that there are thousands of these 'men are shit' posts suggests they're not actually working. If harsh messaging was effective, wouldn't we need fewer of these posts over time, not more?
I want my daughter's generation to grow up in a world where good men aren't afraid to try because they might not be perfect immediately. Just like you want for your son.
Now, this messaging doesn't affect me personally - I relate deeply with women and don't feel burdened by having to modulate my approach in these conversations, in fact its necessary. But many men haven't developed the tools to read between the lines yet. And yes, fragile egos be damned 😜
When men need to be open (which I totally agree with), women would need to be welcoming but to be honest your caption isn’t. The men you want to change won’t be encouraged to change and learn if all they see are captions and headlines like yours, they rather will be thrown off and fall deeper into their resentment.
I didn’t write this article, is that what you meant?
I know you're directing this question are the person above but realized after your first response that I thought you may have been the author and that I believed I was responding to them. But here we are all better for it. I wish these nested 'restacks' were better displayed.
My apologies for disturbing your wall/space.
Wait, you didn’t? It came across that way but you’re right. Like the other person under this post I always thought you were the author, then my apologies.
I can honestly relate to this experience as a man myself and it’s weird to me. I feel like queer men take the benefits of the patriarchy and want that heteronormative status while in a relationship with another man. It’s perplexing to somehow be a man but to be so in tune with the experience that women have but still also be benefiting from the privilege men have. I get to have that privilege but not fully. Do you think it’s because of some other identity that supersedes the male one? I don’t think I have an answer for why I’m always carrying the emotional weight and being the one to take responsibility for when I handle it poorly but getting no credit when I manage it well. Help me understand what the fuck this is and how to move away from men and towards women
It’s called being neurotic. It’s an inverted presentation of narcissism caused by one of your parents/caretakers invalidating you and then not comforting you so you experienced ego death from the pain. Now, you lack self-esteem. When you get self-esteem, you’ll realize the reason no one appreciates all this work you do is because no one wants to validate it. They hate that you do it. They want you to stop. Sure, from time to time, after you’ve worn them down or they become insecure, maybe they momentarily contradict the message they’ve been overwhelmingly sending you—and you choose to see that moment as a breakthrough for them instead of what it actually is, a breakdown that you participated in—but nonetheless they want you to stop.
Brilliant. Brilliant. Fucking Brilliant.
Says the woman who doesn’t HAVE a man. That’s our fault? You blame us because you don’t have a man? GROW UP.
Where does a guy submit an emotional resume? I feel I qualify more for a relationship than a lot of jobs 😅
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Hang around Substack long enough and you'll find all the evidence you need. I came across a guy's post recently: “women need to take accountability.” Challenged him in the comments. He had no comeback, just told me to apologise. I mean, are you alright, mate?
Then it came out. He thinks “low value women should stay in their lane” and “of course men want to fuck attractive women, why would they settle if they can fuck someone better?”
A brave bit of self-reveal, really. And such a clean example of how these men project their own flaws onto women. They use and hurt women. Women leave or disengage. Then they whinge about a “loneliness epidemic” and “high divorce rates.”
Because apparently, we should all just enable their parasitic leeching forever.
Aren’t you finding the evidence you need not yourself? Men are bad being the basic message.
I love this.
Looking forward to the articles you mentioned.